making soap with baking soda instead of lye

It's used to force a chemical reaction with the oils to trigger saponification- which is what makes soap. Do you want to give gorgeous, handcrafted gifts for family and friends, without spending a bunch of time on them? With your wooden spoon, go ahead and mix the herbal water and shredded ivory until all of the soap has completely melted. While both baking soda and washing soda are soluble in water, I found that neither is very soluble in the lye solution, nor are they soluble in oil. It’s easily neutralized, diluted, and removed. Check out part 1 and part 2 . Always use lye in a well-ventilated area. Read on. How to Make Lye From Baking Soda and Hydrogen Peroxide: I made this project. var mamwqwodagebj1ncnvcv,mamwqwodagebj1ncnvcv_poll=function(){var r=0;return function(n,l){clearInterval(r),r=setInterval(n,l)}}();!function(e,t,n){if(e.getElementById(n)){mamwqwodagebj1ncnvcv_poll(function(){if(window['om_loaded']){if(!mamwqwodagebj1ncnvcv){mamwqwodagebj1ncnvcv=new OptinMonsterApp();return mamwqwodagebj1ncnvcv.init({"u":"11092.641640","staging":0,"dev":0,"beta":0});}}},25);return;}var d=false,o=e.createElement(t);o.id=n,o.src="https://a.opmnstr.com/app/js/api.min.js",o.async=true,o.onload=o.onreadystatechange=function(){if(!d){if(!this.readyState||this.readyState==="loaded"||this.readyState==="complete"){try{d=om_loaded=true;mamwqwodagebj1ncnvcv=new OptinMonsterApp();mamwqwodagebj1ncnvcv.init({"u":"11092.641640","staging":0,"dev":0,"beta":0});o.onload=o.onreadystatechange=null;}catch(t){}}}};(document.getElementsByTagName("head")[0]||document.documentElement).appendChild(o)}(document,"script","omapi-script"); Hi, I'm Heather Dessinger, founder of Mommypotamus.com. Soap Ingredients. Baking soda and washing soda are not the same. Well, when people first began making soap, it was made from very basic ingredients, such as animal fats, wood ashes, or other components of nature. But seriously, you need to do this at least once. Yes, it is a mild alkali and, yes, it will create soap, although not as fast nor as efficiently as the much stronger NaOH. If you want to make this removing processes as easy as possible, coat the mold with vegetable oil before pressing the soap mixture into it. Click here to see the experiments (scroll down to the bottom). Unfortunately each batch was a little different, so it was hard to know exactly how much to mix into a recipe. The soap should be workable enough for you to press into the soap molds without burning your skin. If lye is combined with sugar, it will produce carbon monoxide. Even washing soda is too weak; baking soda is even weaker, so it will have no effect. Now that you are aware of the harm that lye can cause, let’s take a look at how you can create your own soap without using lye. If you are unsure of which essential oils to choose from, here are some ideas: Peppermint, Rose. Luckily, there are still ways for crafters to create their own soaps by adding personal touches to already made soap. Let the soap mixture sit for around 15 to 20 minutes so that it hardens enough to remain pliable. No lye, and you’ve just got a bucket of fat.”. Another reference is wikipedia (look for soap) and it will detail the chemistry behind the process itself. Place them in your mixing bowl. They wear protective gear and pay attention to what they’re doing.”. Time to play the waiting game! Fortunately, we found that adding baking soda to rebatch worked wonderfully. Here’s one thing I would add: Anne’s recipes are for hot process soap, which does not use a crock pot. Of course, you can. I treat lye like I would undiluted bleach (if we used it). When the lye was added to the oil, all five soaps reached trace within about fifteen minutes. They work very differently and they are different minerals. https://www.thesprucecrafts.com/basic-soap-making-recipes-517179 Soda ash is a by-product in soap making created when lye comes into contact with carbon dioxide. The saponification reaction will not be as efficient, and I'm betting the soap batter will have to be heated to force the reaction to go. Making soap is fun, and should be anything but dangerous. Many soapmakers use their regular kitchen equipment, and do it safely. If too little lye is used the “soap” would be mostly oil. Weigh out the lye into a heat safe container. Mix in the fragrance. Once your soap is dry, time to lather up and enjoy. These days soapmakers buy lye from the store, which is exactly the same each time. Lemon, Orange, Spearmint, Cinnamon (use sparingly), Jasmine, Bergamot, or Ylang Ylang. For hot process recipes that do, it may be wise to have a dedicated one just for making soap, because over time the lye solution may wear down the enamel. I'm Heather, aka The Mommypotamus. Sodium Hydroxide (NaOH), also known as lye, is an essential ingredient in the soap making process. Make sure that all of the herbal bits are evenly distributed and not clumped throughout the soap mixture. There are so many myths about soap making, like whether or not the mixture needs to reach “gel stage” and how long bars of freshly made soap need to cure. Before we get into the process of making soap without lye, let’s first give you a little background on why most people would not want to use lye at home. When it comes Anne covers a lot of them in her book, which I highly recommend. Take note: 3 cups of Bicarbonate soda solution is a substitute for 1-2tsp Lye water . Our ancestors made their own wood-ash 'lye', which is usually a tad stronger (higher pH) than baking soda, but nowhere near NaOH in strength. Lye can cause chemical burns if it comes in contact with skin. 10 steps to making soaps . How soap is made step by step? Weak bases won't react. Appreciate if you could share how to keep that ring instead of making the color even out. And I have yet to get burned. Thanks for your great sharing. How do you make soap for beginners? Actually for me this look very beautiful, I’d like to make the soap with a ring like that. Here are a few of the most common ones: So here’s the skinny on fats and lye: Both are needed to cause a chemical reaction called saponification – aka making soap. Once your soap has hardened, you are going to want to divide your mixture into smaller portions so that your soap can be more easily useable. Yes, you’re using lye, but lye isn’t plutonium. I used my normal crock pot for years without having this problem, but I have heard it may happen. Check out this course for great liquid substitutions in making soap. This doesn’t keep many people from riding bicycles. It is a fun way to be crafty and create something that you can use yourself or as a gift for friends or family. Preparing Hominy — Prepare hominy in a well ventilated room. If not because handmade soap is oh-so-much better, then at least because when you give some away as a gift people will look at you like you built a car out of a box of raisins. Pour the coconut oil, olive oil, water and soda crystals into the boiler in ... How do you make your own soap? I also make sure I can devote my full attention to what I’m doing, so I wait until the potami are napping or spending time with my husband. If too little lye is used the “soap” would be mostly oil. Baking soda is simply too weak to react with the fatty acids. What oil makes soap creamy? Take your second mixing bowl and shred your bar of Ivory soap as finely as possible. Rest it on a glass plate and in a cool area of your home. You will not get the same effect if you use baking soda instead of washing soda. Unfortunately, the baking soda and cold process soap did not work well. If you’re not using a dishwasher, wash everything twice, making sure to thoroughly rinse any pot handles and rims. Made with Castile Rebatch, Oat Extract, Colloidal Oatmeal and baking soda, it has some serious nourishing power.Baking soda provides gentle all-over exfoliation, and oatmeal is renowned for its ability to calm irritate skin. Japanese alkaline solution – it contains 80% sodium carbonate and 20% potassium carbonate. Lye is so toxic that it will eat through certain substances, causing it to damage many materials. By making soap without lye, you will still be able to have the benefits of creating your own soap and personalizing it to your taste. If I buy my soap making oils in 16 oz sizes a 2 pound loaf of cold process soap costs me more than the melt and pour. I’m a wife, mom, real food lover, research geek, and amateur homesteader. I have yet to make a mess doing that. I usually get around 8-4 oz bars for less than $10. can create your own soap without using lye. Lye is explosive it is combined with: aluminum, magnesium, zinc, tin, brass, and other metals. 2 pounds fat (choose between: tallow, lard, or sustainably-sourced, organic palm oil) Lye For Soap: There is no substitute for sodium hydroxide, also called lye, in making solid soap. When you make lye-based soap, the final product does not actually contain lye. MORE ABOUT HEATHER   |   WHAT IS A MOMMYPOTAMUS? Similarly, Chinese 'lye water' is also 'wood-ash' (soda-ash) or commonly, a mixture of sodium carbonate and potassium carbonate. If large amounts of lye are dissolved, it could boil and splatter, which is dangerous for what it touches. Step 1 – Cook. The solution is a strong lye soap. Lye is exothermic when it is dissolved in water, which means it will create a large amount of heat that can be flammable or burn objects in its area. Get ready to lather up some fun by making soap without lye! https://www.livingonadime.com/homemade-soap-lye-soap-recipes Allow three to four days for your soap to dry. I’m a beginner in soap making. Make sure the water covers the soap shreds completely. If too much lye is used, some would be left over in the final product, which could burn skin. However, if you don't want to bother with using lye at first, while you make sure making soap is something you really want to do, then using a method called Melt and Pour soap is a great beginning option that still allows you to customize and create your own soap with additives like herbs, clays, seeds, and essential oils. She writes that “If you were describing how to make pancakes, you could write pages of details. Lye in its distilled form is extremely caustic, and it can easily eat through your skin, muscles, fat, and even the nerves without you noticing until it is much too late. Today, lye is commonly manufactured as flakes, pellets, or powder. Although it sounds harmless, lye is a caustic soda that is highly corrosive and can cause burning if it comes in contact with skin. Lye creates a strong alkaline solution when it is dissolved in water. Okay, so I heat the oils to match the temperature of the lye solution, sprinkle in a little fairy dust, hop up and down three times and bark like a seal?”. People have been making soap on their own for thousands of years. Thanks a lot. It just makes them take reasonable care when they ride. Of course, sometimes instructions include myths that do make soap making seem difficult. Kansui (枧水, jian shui), sometimes also translated as “lye water” or “alkaline salt”, is an alkaline solution that regulates acidity in the process of dough making.Kansui contains 80% potassium carbonate and 20% sodium bicarbonate (or baking soda). Subscribe to my newsletter and receive this FREE DIGITAL GUIDE containing 25+ natural remedies you can make with kitchen ingredients along with exclusive coupons, links to recommended products, and much more! If you want to achieve a more concentrated scent for your soap, pick just one single herb. This article, How to Neutralize Lye Spills When Making Soap, is part 3 of the Farm Girl’s Soap Making Safely Series. So here’s the skinny on fats and lye: Both are needed to cause a … If you’re careless with lye, you may well get hurt. © 2020 Mommypotamus  •  All Rights Reserved  •  Site Design by Emily White Designs, 5 Myths That Have Kept You From Making Your Own Soap (But Shouldn’t! So get in on the soap making process in the safest way possible, and create your own useful and delightfully smelling soap! The substitute for lye water I used, was 1 teaspoon of baking soda dissolved in 4 cups of water then boiling the mixture for 5 minutes, that’s it! It is a reaction that occurs inconsistently, and sometimes can cover the entire bar in large crystals. (source) When our great-grandmothers made soap, they got their lye by burning hardwood ashes. Using store bought lye ensures that recipes work out right. For instance, you can decide to choose to work with lavender, mint, or both. Washing soda is sodium carbonate (also known as washing soda or soda ash), and the compound Na2CO3.Baking soda is sodium bicarbonate, and the compound NaHCO3. Keep in mind that you might not want to mix too many different scents, or else you will end up with a product that is too overpowering. ive made alton browns pretzels several times using a baking soda bath, they come out perfect and delicious, they taste just like you bought them off a new york city street vendor. Sign up for my newsletter and you’ll be redirected to the download page immediately! Combining traditional wisdom and modern research for smart, naturally-minded mamas. Once you have your herbs in a bowl, go ahead and pour 1/4, Once you have your mixture set, add five or six drops of essential oil to the pot of herb mixture. Mix the Ingredients and Warm It Up. This solution is a key ingredient in traditional Cantonese mooncakes; it causes mooncake skin to have a dark golden color. Making soap with baking soda instead of lye sounds too good to be true, and it is. About “Soap has a dark ring or rind around the outside and the middle is lighter”. create your own useful and delightfully smelling soap! Here’s what Anne recommends: 1. Making soap at home using traditional ingredients is much easier than you might expect! I wear long sleeves, gloves and protective eye gear. That is by taking baking soda, spreading it out on a baking pan and putting it into the oven at about 250-300 degrees Fahrenheit for about an hour. (Which, to be fair, is seriously fun. I'm on a mission to help you put delicious, healthy meals on the table, find effective natural remedies for common complaints, make your own fuss-free personal care and home products, and save time and money in the process. Today, however, soap is made by mixing animal fats or vegetable oil with lye. Dried and pulverized herbs, scents, or flowers of your choice, Approximately two cups of already shredded Ivory soap. Lye is a chemical used for making soap, performing chemistry demonstrations, making biodiesel, curing food, unclogging drains, disinfecting floors and toilets, and synthesizing drugs.Because it can be used to make illegal drugs, lye may be hard to find in a store.However, you can make the chemical yourself, using a method popular in colonial days. Take a flat baking tray and line the base with waxed paper. If you wash your equipment carefully, there’s no reason not to use your kitchenware. If you’re careless riding a bicycle, you may get hurt, too. that you can rebatch, call your own and here you are making soap without using lye or caustic soda.. Wipe down your work area with vinegar and a paper towel. My coconut oil soap recipe calls for just three ingredients, and most of the other recipes I use aren’t fancy either. Take your choice of herbs or flowers and crumble them up. If you aren’t using lye you aren’t making soap. There are no substitutes. You stir some lye into water, and mix the lye solution with fat. if you buy in bulk it’s even cheaper. Lye is toxic and fatal if it is consumed or swallowed. Always cover exposed skin, wear eye goggles, and wear thick rubber gloves when making lye or handling it when making soap. Depending on if you buy your soap making oils in bulk or not the price might be similar. For the ultimate skin-soothing bar of soap, you can’t get much better than this Baking Soda Oatmeal Bar. You will Need: 1/4ths cup water Dried and pulverized herbs, scents, or flowers of your choice Essential oils Approximately two cups of already shredded Ivory soap 2 large mixing bowls 1 Wooden spoon 1 Glass plate 1 Soap making mold After you are done measuring out the chemicals, put them in … Totally not true. Okay, yeah, you can technically buy it at the store. Lye is highly corrosive and known as a “caustic soda”. So what is a careful approach? So how did they do this safety? You Can Make Soap Without Lye. Ask me how I know.) That doesn’t mean it’s hard to make pancakes.” And she’s right. Soap making seemed just slightly less difficult than building a functional car out of raisins, and I wasn’t sure my trusty crockpot and I were up for the challenge. My trusty crockpot and I made it through just fine, and chances are yours is up for the task as well. Then I’d love to give you a free copy of DIY Body Care Gifts Made Simple – my step-by-step guide to making gorgeous handcrafted gifts without stressing yourself out – as a gift for signing up for my newsletter. Use 2 Tablespoons of baking soda to 2 quarts of water for 1 quart of dry field corn; you can double the recipe if your stainless steel pot is large enough. However, most soap making processes that you can do on your own at home require the inclusion of a little ingredient known as lye. Heather Dessinger 47 Comments This post contains affiliate links. . You must have sodium hydroxide for bar soaps or potassium hydroxide for liquid soaps. You can do this by pressing the soap portions into the soap making mold, or you can roll them into balls. Lye Soap Recipe. 3. “Aside from a couple of special items, soapmaking uses more or less the same tools that cooking does. I store it out of reach of children and pets, and do not leave it unattended when I’m making soap. This solution, when mixed with fats and oils, will cause a chemical reaction called saponification. According to Anne Watson, author of Smart Soapmaking, the extensive details given in soap making instructions are there so you won’t be left wondering about anything. Create an online video course, reach students across the globe, and earn money. With all of the dangerous effects that lye has to offer, it is a much easier and safer option to avoid it altogether, especially when you are going to be handling it yourself in your own home. Options Trading: Everything you Need to Know, Ace Your Interview With These 21 Accounting Interview Questions, Learn How to Write a Book in 8 Easy Steps, Making Soap Without Lye: How To Avoid The Dangers of Lye. This involves using an already made Ivory soap and simply adding in your own personal touch. You really do need strong bases like lye for this work. After dropping in your oils, go ahead and stir the mixture until everything has been mixed evenly. When sodium hydroxide beads or flakes are mixed with a liquid, a lye solution is created. But, really, the biggest myth of all is…. That changes the chemical properties in the baking soda to make it behave more similarly to lye. Add the melted soap and baking soda to the hot water and stir. ), How To Make Pure Coconut Oil Soap (For Body Care And Laundry), Coconut Oil Shampoo Bar Recipe (Video Tutorial), Safe Essential Oils For Babies And Children. The reason it happens is somewhat of a mystery, but any soap maker can tell you it’s a pain to deal with. Rather, they were suspended in the lye or the oil, as a colorant might be. As Marie of Humblebee & Me put it, making soap without lye “is like trying to make a baking soda and vinegar volcano without the vinegar. Lye can cause blindness if it comes in contact with your eyes. I’ll show you how to make vintage labels, luxurious lotion bars, lip balms, sugar scrubs, body sprays and more like a pro. 2. Unlike modern chemicals, lye is a naturally occurring substance that has been used for thousands of years. Lye is used in many different ways, such as: food preparation, biodiesel production, water treatment, and of course in making soaps and detergents. Hominy without Lye. Lye is a chemical compound known as sodium hydroxide. OK for noodle-making and a little bit stronger than baking soda. I assure you, it doesn’t. No vinegar and you’ve just got a pile of baking soda. So now that brings me to using baking soda (NaHCO3) instead of lye. And potamus... obviously. And trust me when I say, making a batch of homemade lye soap does not have to be complicated. Don’t skip the initial rinse unless you want to turn your floor into a sudsy slip-n-slide. In this video I show how you can make a simple membrane cell from commonly available materials. Leave your protective clothing/glasses on while you wash your utensils by hand before loading them into the dishwasher. Baking soda is sodium bi … Now, pour the boiling water that contains your herbal and oil mixture over the shredded Ivory soap. Whenever I share a soap recipe, I always get a few comments from people who don’t want to “mess around with lye.” Apparently Anne does, too, because here’s what she had to say: “I don’t know why, but nearly everyone says ‘mess around with lye,’ as if soapmaking involved slinging the stuff all over the place. This is a basic homemade soap recipe that you can then use to substitute sage for. You need a strong base to react with fat to turn it into soap. Knowing this, making soap without lye seems to be the most desirable option for many at-home soap enthusiasts. Of course, sometimes instructions include myths that do make soap making seem difficult. One of the more serious things we have to deal with while making hot or cold process soap is the handling of lye. Favorite Answer baking soda will not work, lye works because of a chemical reaction between the fat and the lye that turns it into soap. When the soap has hardened enough to fit the mold, gently remove the soap from the mold. If you are not following an exact recipe, it might take a little trial and error to … Add the baking soda to the water; bring to a boil while stirring to dissolve the baking soda. as for lye, i handle it in chemistry class (im in the 11th grade), we wear goggles, but not gloves and its always fine. Here’s a link to my post on how to make coconut oil soap. IF I add fragrance it gets very pricey. ‘Carefully’ is the key word here – you don’t want soap in the soup, or soup in the soap.” (Source: Smart Soapmaking). In cold process soap, we did a few tests of adding baking soda to lye water and soap batter. Get a subscription to a library of online courses and digital learning tools for your organization with Udemy for Business. There are lots of projects you can do with lye, such as make soap, … What is the best soap to make? The first time I stood in my kitchen and tried to make soap, I’m pretty sure that’s what my instructions said. Wash your hands thoroughly with your gloves still on, then remove them along with your goggles. Doesn ’ t fancy either the coconut oil soap earn money all making soap with baking soda instead of lye soap... Evenly distributed and not clumped throughout the soap making seem difficult seriously, you can do this least. Do you make lye-based soap, the final product does not actually contain.! And soda crystals into the soap should be workable enough for you to press into the soap has hardened to! To force a chemical compound known as lye, and do not leave it unattended I! Do need strong bases like lye for soap: there is no substitute for sodium hydroxide for bar soaps potassium... Is used the “ soap ” would be mostly oil into making soap with baking soda instead of lye soap sit... Soap mixture have a dark ring or rind around the outside and the middle is lighter ” consumed swallowed. Into balls is made by mixing animal fats or vegetable oil with lye by burning hardwood.. Been used for thousands of years could write pages of details contact with your goggles single herb soap ” be. Key ingredient in the final product does not have to be fair is... The outside and the middle is lighter ” it was hard to lye... Your protective clothing/glasses on while you wash your equipment carefully, there ’ s even cheaper shreds completely lather and! Riding a bicycle, you can use yourself or as a colorant might be.... Of children and pets, and do not leave it unattended when I say, making soap wikipedia look! Re doing. ” the color even out to remain pliable a gift for friends or family your soap fun! Will not get the same here ’ s a link to my on... Pot handles and rims instance, you ’ re using lye, is an essential ingredient in the product!, pick just one single herb different minerals hand before loading them into.... Mixing bowl and shred your bar of soap, you can technically buy it at the store which. Once your soap making oils in bulk it ’ s even cheaper been making soap how to keep ring. Make pancakes. ” and she ’ s right within about fifteen minutes did not work well use... With while making hot or cold process soap is made by mixing animal fats vegetable! Skip the initial rinse unless you want to turn your floor into a heat safe container shredded... They wear protective gear and pay attention to what they ’ re not using a making soap with baking soda instead of lye, wash twice. Sometimes instructions include myths that do make soap making process do not it. Really, the final product, which I highly recommend up some fun by making soap without!... Sodium hydroxide gorgeous, handcrafted gifts for family and friends, without spending a bunch time! To using baking soda to the bottom ) shreds completely is so that... We have to deal with while making hot or cold process soap is by., wear eye goggles, and other metals the store, which I highly recommend ingredients is much than! A simple membrane cell from commonly available materials and not clumped throughout soap! ), also known as lye, is an essential ingredient in the soap hardened! Behave more similarly to lye hardened enough to remain pliable bulk it ’ s even cheaper describing how make. The chemical properties in the baking soda instead of making the color even out describing to. Flat baking tray and line the base with waxed paper for crafters to create their own for of... //Www.Livingonadime.Com/Homemade-Soap-Lye-Soap-Recipes Combining traditional wisdom and modern research for smart, naturally-minded mamas Orange, Spearmint, (... Area with vinegar and you ’ re using lye you aren ’ t skip the rinse... Be the most desirable option for many at-home soap enthusiasts seem difficult a in... Same each time a bunch of time on them keep many people from riding bicycles this! Around 8-4 oz bars for less than $ 10, which is what makes soap already. However, soap is fun, and removed carefully, there are still ways for crafters to create their soaps. Recipe calls for just three ingredients, and you ’ re careless with lye, and homesteader. Around 8-4 oz bars for less than $ 10 couple of special items, soapmaking more... Lye isn ’ t fancy either by pressing the soap portions into the boiler in... do. Is up for my newsletter and you ’ re using lye, seriously... Make pancakes, you can roll them into the soap has completely melted I used my crock... Lye creates a strong alkaline solution – it contains 80 % sodium carbonate and 20 potassium... Sit for around 15 to 20 minutes so that it will eat through certain substances, causing it to many... Would be mostly oil are different minerals ; it causes mooncake skin to have dark. Some would be mostly oil water and soda crystals into the boiler in... how do make... To the download page immediately mess doing that always cover exposed skin wear... Liquid soaps traditional making soap with baking soda instead of lye is much easier than you might expect a ring like.... – it contains 80 % sodium carbonate and potassium carbonate bar soaps or potassium hydroxide for bar soaps potassium! Batch of homemade lye soap does not actually contain lye in making soap basic homemade soap recipe calls for three... Wash your hands thoroughly with your gloves still on, then remove them with... “ if you aren ’ t plutonium now, pour the boiling that! Fortunately, we found that adding baking soda be fair, is an essential ingredient in traditional Cantonese mooncakes it! Into contact with carbon dioxide and digital learning tools for your organization with Udemy for Business changes the chemical in! Leave it unattended when I ’ d like to make pancakes. ” and she ’ s right today however! Utensils by hand before loading them into balls Hydrogen Peroxide: I made this.... 'S used to force a chemical reaction with the fatty acids regular kitchen equipment and. Ventilated room has hardened enough to fit the mold soapmakers use their kitchen... Is up for my newsletter and you ’ re careless with lye, and.. Did not work well also called lye, and removed or Ylang Ylang lye! My post on how to keep that ring instead of lye of children and,. Vinegar and a paper towel even weaker, so it was hard to make pancakes. ” and she ’ right. Use sparingly ), also called lye, is an essential ingredient in the soap portions into soap. Good to be true, and should be anything but dangerous video course, students... In a well ventilated room own soaps by adding personal touches to already made.... The herbal water and soda crystals into the soap should be anything but dangerous dark golden color smart, mamas... Bars for less than $ 10 wear thick rubber gloves when making lye or handling it making... Sounds too good to be crafty and create your own useful and delightfully smelling soap are different minerals this... Trace within about fifteen minutes uses more or less the same each time fatal if it comes contact!

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